This is a chat log of a CIP person who has publicly defamed me. I am releasing it so that the Deaf community knows the full story.
Most names have been changed to protect the possibly innocent.
T=Fred (not their real name)
K=Kevin (me, real name)
Fri 10.12pm 3NV2017
Just had a few questions for you – apparently you’ve been contacting parents of Deaf/deaf children with CIs? Can I ask why?
k Sat 4NV 10:41AM
Kia ora Fred. Good to hear from you. I’ve kept records of all my contacts with CIP parents. My stance is well known. Some of them have been directing hate speech at me. When it gets to that stage I disengage. I’d be very happy to sit down with anyone and talk with them about any issues or problems they may have. I might add that some people are quite capable of either deliberate or unintentional lies when they get emotional. So be careful about believing stories you hear about me. And, let’s face it, human rights can be an emotional topic. We saw that in NZ in the debate over whether parents had the right to assault their children or not. Anyway, as I say, I’d be happy to explore any allegations and refute them. But I think the best approach is to try to stay respectful and tolerant and built an understanding of the Rights of the Child and the importance of NZSL for profoundly Deaf kids.
oops. I meant to say “build” not “built”
So what gives you the right to contact these parents? Where’s your standing on the issue? You’ve not been very clear with these parents because some of them think you represent our community which you don’t – and that damages the community’s relationship with those parents which is important to us.
T a few minutes later
And I don’t appreciate your comparision to the “anti-smacking” bill – that was more about the fact that courts were letting parents getting away with actual physical abuse based on the previous law rather than any right to smack/similar forms of discipline
k 4:28 leaving time for his anger to subside
Kia ora Fred. Did you read my article? I’m at a bit of a loss to understand your anger, especially where the rights of kids are at stake. Perhaps it would help if you told me what the allegations are and we can take it from there. I’m also a bit surprised because I thought you knew me better. I try always to have the best interests of all people, especially vulnerable people, in the forefront of my mind at all times.
I don’t know you at all, I’ve talked to you twice if that. Myself and others are annoyed with your attitude.
I have read your blog, it is poorly written, terrible and damaging to the relationship between Deaf community and hearing parents of deaf children when you write something like “My Deaf friends know of babies dying on the operating table.”
There are no allegations, just that you have been, for want of a better word, stalking and harrassing parents who did not ask for contact from you, as well as trying to mount a campaign against the Hearing House/SCIP’s Loud Shirt Day. Those parents have also assumed you were part of the Deaf community when in fact you are not.
Your statement that you always try to have the best interests of all people, especially vulnerable people is especially offensive as it implies that you see Deaf as being vulnerable and unable to make decisions for themselves so you must defend/protect us instead of letting us represent our own view and community. Do you know of the Milan conference where sign language was banned worldwide in educational settings? That decision was made by hearing people with the same attitude as you – that Deaf people cannot represent our own community and advocate in issues important to us.
You also do not understand that our community includes a wide range of people, with different levels of hearing. You expose your own privilege here and elsewhere for example making negative comments regarding DA’s translation of the last election debate.
My question again is: what is your standing in this issue? You are not deaf/Deaf, nor are you a parent or grandparent of a deaf child, nor part of the community. You have no published research nor completed any formal study. Have you even attended any Deaf cultural awareness classes or siginficant amount of NZSL classes?
I ask that you stop with what you are doing – or at least be clear about who you are – ie a hearing man looking for a cause to champion. Leave the issue to community to work on.
Sunday 5NV2017 12.59 (noon)
Kia ora Fred. You’re one of the lucky CIP people. 1/3 of others aren’t so lucky. You say there are no allegations, then you say I’ve stalked people. That’s ridiculous. Who am I supposed to have “stalked”?
I’m happy to have a dialogue with you, but abusing me is not going to help you or me or Deaf kids or the Deaf community. Of course many Deaf adults are also vulnerable. I’ve seen Deaf adults bullied by their hearing CODAs. I’ve seen Deaf adults financially bullied by their hearing CODAs. I’ve helped Deaf adult friends who have been bullied by real estate agents and WINZ. For you to misinterpret that in the way that you have is wrong Fred. There is no way I would ever try to remove agency from anyone. You might also want to sit down with Mary and have a talk to her about how older Deaf people are faring in nursing homes.
Your reliance on the toxic form of identity politics and your attempts at credentialism also do you no credit. Likewise your insults and calling me a liar and your attempts to undermine me psychologically will not affect me, so I urge you not to try. Can you hear the silliness of what you are saying? You say you don’t know me but then give me a list of things you claim to know about me. The Deaf community is a very broad church and you telling me I don’t belong is, quite frankly, ridiculous and strongly contradicted by my Deaf friends. By all means point out where we may differ. Then we can try to have a rational discussion about it.
I am still at a total loss to understand your anger or why you seem to feel so threatened. I can only surmise that your anger has led to a misinterpretation of my views. Your feelings may have clouded your ability to be objective and perhaps you have been influenced by hate speech without finding out the facts.
Focus again on my blog and try to be objective rather than try childishly to insult me. Tell me what, if anything you think is wrong with my PLD conclusions.
I think it’s amazing and sad that parents with Hearing Privilege make their kids spend literally years of time on a CIP (with its one third failure rate) but won’t bother to spend a bit of time learning NZSL (I’ve never heard of PLD for kids raised with Sign Language). It’s sad that they believe the anti-bilingualism propaganda of the CIP industry.
Re my critique of the DANZ terps, I’ve sat down separately with both Adele and Christine. Both acknowledged truth in what I had to say and DANZ agreed to remove the intemperate and personal attack on me by one of the terps on the DANZ FB page. To be fair in representing Adele and Christine views, both didn’t like the way I presented the critique and we agreed to disagree with the mutual hope that these issues will be further discussed once the next iteration of Trish Fitzgerald’s report is available. Once again, my Deaf friends loved my critique and I had sensible discussions with Adele and Christine.
If you insist on misrepresenting my actions re Loud Shirt day, that’s a pity. The fact of the matter is that the Hearing House, even if it does have an NZSL tutor on the premises sometimes, is deeply against NZSL. Its support of Julia Sarant is disgusting. I attended her lecture where she told grieving parents that they should avoid NZSL. Those parents were deeply disturbed and in tears trying to make the best decisions for their kids. They then get locked into the wrong decision (Check out the SB-210 laws in California) and seek to protect themselves and their psyches in any way they can even when they suspect they may be wrong. They watch their kids fail to thrive on CIP and they feel very cut up about that. Perhaps it’s that which generates the hate speech. I’ve met PLD kids and you probably have too. Sym Gardiner estimates he’s met over 100 and says that number is only a drop in the bucket [edit 30 March 2018. Please see comment 2 below for clarification of Sym’s views].
The closed minded attitude of Scott Johnston is equally reprehensible. Here’s what a Deaf person had to say for example about an advertising campaign run by a company in the CIP business structure of which Scott is an intergral part:
“But by far the worst advertisement was the television advertisement made for the Cora Barclay Centre in South Australia. This was some years ago but this advertisement was incredibly offensive. In the advertisement there is an angelic boy. He has a mop of brown curly hair, he might have been about 12 years old. The boy looks sadly into the camera and in halting sign language explains that many years ago people who were deaf communicated in sign language JUST LIKE THIS – He stops momentarily – then in a sing song voice, with just a trace of a deaf accent he proclaims – “But NOW THERE IS A BETTER WAY.” He then begins to exalt the virtues of the Cora Barclay Centre. Donate and more kids will speak just like him. None of this nasty sign language rubbish, thank you very much. I really do not need to repeat what the Deaf community thought of this one. Suffice to say several staff of the Cora Barclay Centre – past and present – contacted me at that time to express their sorrow and embarrassment in relation to this advertisement. The Cora Barclay Centre did not even respond to criticism of the advertisement.”
I can tell you Fred, that not much has essentially changed since then.
Anyway, like I say, I’m happy to continue a discussion with you, but the bullying doesn’t cut it.
Fred Sun 11.55 PM
Kevin – again you twist and misinterpret this conversation so I guess I will respond for one last time in a brief style – even though you have gone all over the place. I am not discussing with you the benefits or the cons of having CI – I’m letting you know what it is you’re doing and the associated harm. However as your post is all over the place – I will try my best to respond to each as they come up – hence you may need to refer back to your own post to make sure you fully understand.
What else is it that you are doing, other than stalking them? You obtain their names/contact info and then contact them out of the blue to pressure them when you have no connection to them or any standing. Why do you do this? Are you obvlivious to the process that parents go through when they have a profoundly deaf baby? That they are generally given information regarding both NZSL and hearing aid options and where to from there, how AODCs initiate certain things happening depending on parents wishes etc?
If you believe me to be abusing, bullying or childishly insulting you then please do highlight where so – because I do not believe I have, but maybe I need to self reflect on that. However I would ask you to reread your post – you come across as talking down to me – as if you know more about the topic than I could ever do – despite me living it, experiencing it, knowing many Deaf youths and deaf youths and their experiences, and also having done a bit of reading into the audiological and language studies.
You are using your privilege to assume you know about my experience and presume to understand it – implying that I’m lucky because of my particular use case of my CI. Everyone uses or don’t use their CI differently and that’s fine with me – I don’t judge that. I don’t consider anyone lucky or unlucky because they can understand English with a CI.
I at least understand most of the privileges that I am fortunate to have – for example having the privilege of being able to walk where I like at nighttime without worrying about other people jumping me or whatnot because I am a tall big man and no one is likely to mess with me, hopefully, but a small woman does not have that same privilege and has to constantly worry about their surrounding and peoples in it. I recognise that by crossing the street to the other side if I am coming up behind a woman because I don’t want them to stress out about me for example.
Again you twist what I say regarding vulnerability – I said you view us Deaf as being all vulnerable. You’ve gone on to list incidents of vulnerability and I am well aware of those cases happening but does that mean the community is as a whole vulnerable and needs you to do what you’re doing, making ‘representations’ on our behalf? No. Also – It’s the community and community organisations that tend to help these people understand what has happened and how best to resolve and hopefully prevent from happening again in the future.
The Deaf community is indeed a broad church – but like how we have to conform to the wider hearing world at times, people coming into the community should understand Deaf etiquette, how issues might be discussed and advocated for etc. And if you don’t, are you part of the community?
Could you highlight where I’ve called you a liar please? Regarding “identity politics” – do you think that being Deaf is just about “identity politics”? Also – “credentialism” ironic term for you to use, yet you cannot even use a basic terminology of the field right. CIP does not mean cochlear implant, it means cochlear implant programme. When you say CIP, you mean CI.
You sound very silly yourself – I of course do not know you, but I have learned from others and seen with my own eyes through your comments/actions on Facebook. It’s kind of like how I don’t know President Trump but I can see what type of person he is through his comments and actions. An extreme example but apt, I think.
I have tried focussing on your blog – but it is poorly written with emotive language with incredibly bad information such as CAT scans being dangerous – that’s MRI scans, duh. However again, the most striking example is “My Deaf friends have told me babies have died on the operating table” – yet no links, no studies, nothing whatsoever. You know what’s hilarious? I doubt you’re even aware that there IS a slightly higher risk for people with CI to contract meningitis and flu – which is why you get vaccinations before surgery, and the govt provides yearly flu vaccinations for free.
It seems you’re pretty unaware of the history of the Deaf community – this fight over CI was had a few decades back, and it took a long time for things to come right and to start education Deaf children with NZSL again. That is one of the risks of your actions; to start it all over again.
You missed my point again. Doesn’t matter if you were right or wrong about your critique about DA’s translation of the debate – the point is – why did you do it? Have you learned NZSL in a formal setting? Have you completed the AUT interpreting qualification or at least started studying? Again my point is, when you made your critique, where is your standing to do so?
How have I misrepresented your views re Loud Shirt Day – please do read again – I said “campaign against Loud Shirt Day/The Hearing House.” That is what you did, right? I have heard, though perhaps that is not true, that you approached some of the big funders to try discourage them from having any association with Loud Shirt Day. Which again isn’t your place to do so – no matter the problems The Hearing House might have.
Honestly, regarding the rest of your post – it interests me not in the slightest and does not affect the topic that I am driving at and you are wilfully and arrogantly ignoring. It does however interests me that you’ve read so deeply into some of what I’ve said, imagined so many insults and gone way off target with your topics. I can imagine that it must be upsetting for some of those parents you contact – it’s like reasoning with a brick wall. And that is one insult I’ll happily give…
k Monday 6NV2017 12.12 pm
Kia ora Fred
Thanks for taking the time to reply. You are wrong and make erroneous assumptions on many things. So I will also keep it on point and not respond to each of your assumptions. I will say that it is refreshing to hear your honesty that you’ve formed conclusions about me via listening to rumours – nice one Fred.
1. You appear to have been lied to. I have NEVER “obtained” peoples names and contact info and “pressured” them. You need to provide evidence of this ridiculous proposition and stop spreading defamatory lies. I have no idea what you are talking about. Who has been telling you these lies?
2. This issue is about Human Rights. Is PLD a serious problem, yes or no? Until you answer that question this dialogue has a glaring deficiency. You disappoint me if you think I think this is about “benefits or the cons” of CIP. I have never argued against CIP. It is not about CIP; it’s about language (CRPD/UNCRPD Article 24).
3. Parents of new born Deaf babies are pressured big time to begin CIP ASAP. The Hearing House flies dodgy “academics” into NZ to actively tell parents not to use NZSL. The funding disparities between the two (CIP/NZSL) are enormous. Some parents don’t know about First Signs. Some parents hate NZSL and are afraid of it and are clearly encouraged by bullshit academics backed by the CIP industry. A Deaf person who is a First Signs Facilitator has told me that they were too scared to talk about bilingualism with parents. Despite this, many parents, but not all, want NZSL. In feedback about First Signs 19/22 respondents said they wanted more NZSL. So you are wrong to think the program proceeds the way you think it does.
4. You call me a liar by saying my friends have not told me about Deaf babies dying on the operating table. They have told me. And you can google the facts of the matter. I make no apologies for leaving the statement in my blog. It was left there via the specific request of a Deaf friend who helped me on the project. And more than one Deaf friend had input into it. And yes I got it wrong about CAT/MRI on an earlier blog and I had the courage to say so and leave it there. Nice of you not to notice my reasons for doing so.
BTW when I say CIP I mean CIP. For kids, it’s years of intensive P because they are trying to learn a language at the same time and for one third of them it never works out. For older kids born Deaf who already have 2 languages (eg Sign and written English like Leah Coleman) the P is less problematic. For adults generally there can be an ongoing P need or a need for periodic topup. Without it some people develop a stronger “deaf accent” which loses the high frequency consonants and makes communication more difficult.
I knew about the Milan conference before you were born. You have no idea of my links to the Deaf community in many countries around the world or how I came to be involved.
I’m a bit shocked that you try the NZSL credentialism card again; that’s just intellectually sloppy. And you appear not to know what I mean by the toxic form of ID politics. I’m happy to expand on this if you wish.
Once again, please be assured of my ongoing desire to see the best outcomes for everyone in these things. If you stopped making assumptions and stopped paying credence to rumours without checking the facts you may get to see that. Please don’t be responsible for spreading any furthe hate speech.
Fri 17 Nov 2017
Kia ora Fred
I haven’t heard back from you. I am very keen to sort this allegation out. You have made a serious allegation that I have been “stalking and harrassing” parents of Deaf children. You provide no evidence other than rumour which I am guessing comes from parents who have been taught to hate NZSL and who now hate me and are trying their best to damage me. I look forward to getting this sorted ASAP.
Hiya, you refused to listen to me when this original conversation happened so I’m fairly sure I was clear that I couldn’t be bothered to carry on an endless argument with you.
Really, that’s your own problem – it’s nothing to do with me and I can’t sort it out for you. I came to you to see if you would stop but you have refused to. The “damage” being done to you is being done by yourself through your own actions.
I am amused however, that you think I have “ongiong P need or a periodic top” I’d better let my audiologist know she needs to be giving me dat drugs
Kia ora Fred. I’m not happy with that response. You are now ‘victim blaming’. Clearly people, including possibly yourself, are spreading lies about me. Either you name the source to me or we agree on a 3rd party you can give your evidence to. You could give your evidence in confidence if you feel you don’t want to tell me the name of the person spreading lies.
I’m sorry that you’re not happy with my response, but guess now you can understand why I feel unhappy with your response.
Are you threatening me?
I’m sorry if you see any threat. What threat do you think you see?
There seems to be a pretty clear threat implied in your either or statement but if you say there is no threat then that’s fine. However, I can’t be bothered continuing with you, you clearly do not listen to alternative points of view so why would I waste time and energy on you?
In a moment I will block you but please do let me know when you read so I can do so.